"It's called being smart enough to see past the hype they use to try to sell their products to mindless sheep Dog Sofas."
Ahh yes the mindless sheep argument...
Do you not understand that the "Superpremium" food is as well hyped.. Its called MARKETING..
Natura's website is designed to put down any ingredient that they do not include Cat Furniture . Such as Poultry By Product.. Do you know how they put down Poultry By Product.. By saying "What kind of Poultry" That is what politicians call "Spin" if you want to buy into that go right ahead.. I will continue to look for Independant 3rd party Dog Treats in regards to the food I feed my dog (as well as the gas I put in my car).
Oh yea and as far as that webpage you sent me to.. I tried serching for luxury pet products of the foods they have listed as their webpage having information on and only found 2... THAT guy is trying to sell a book..
Brenda (bjdobson)
Charter Member
Innova by Natura does NOT contain byproduct, Jason.
And maybe he is trying to sell a book - I wouldn't know - I just know what he says is accurate - you feed less of superpremium kibbles.
Marketing? What marketing? I've NEVER searched all through Natura's site - I don't care what they have to say. I just look for lists of ingredients and go by what's IN the food - not what ANYONE has to say about it.
To me, that's pretty unbiased, isn't it?
I make my own Pet Dining , thank you very much. NO marketing is going to sway me. Ever.
I feed my cats Flashlights because it's a DECENT quality high end kibble. Dog Hats, not the best but better than what they used to eat and they didn't do well on Solid Gold and I can't GET Innova around here so Chicken Soup it is. (They did GREAT on Innova, by the way). They're doing fine on it so I'm happy with it - it has NO byproducts and NO "digest" in it. THAT is what matters to Cat Beds.
Natura, etc., don't DO any amount of Catnip. Period. No advertising. Period. So do whatever you like, Cat Treats . I'll buy foods with QUALITY ingredients in them with NOTHING harmful or disgusting in them that may contain chemicals or other harmful Cat Apparel.
I've had enough of this luxury pet supplies. Do as you please. I won't be back to this thread.
Jason K. (cheewiee)
Member
Username: cheewiee
Post Number: 74
Registered: 6-2005
"Natura, etc., don't DO any amount of marketing. Period. No advertising. Period."
*IF* you believe that statement..
I have a bridge I would like to sell you...
Not interested in Concrete how about some waterfront property in South Florida.... EVERY COMPANY markets their products...
It may not be in a way you as the consumer are consious of but rest assured they do... You on this website Ranting about how good their food is, is a form of marketing... Selling something as "Premium" and then listing the ingredients of other brands and making suspect remarks about the products not in their food is a marketing ploy.
Marketing is the key to ANY business, if a company Cat Dining NO MARKETING AT ALL they will no longer be in business. Just because they don't advertise on TV, Radio, or Print does not mean they "don't DO any amount of marketing. Period. No advertising. Period."
If their company isn't in it to make money then they wouldn't be in business.
By the way.. They have a website.. That website describes their Dog Beds.. The ADVERTISE their Dog Clothing on their website designed to MARKET their products to what they see as their Market Segment...
Jaime Bates (amstaffy)
Moderator
Username: amstaffy
Post Number: 1707
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 4:49 pm:
Jason,
One of their best marketing tools is having their reps at dog shows and dog events as Pet Furniture ..although not spending money on advertising they are promoting their Pet Grooming Supplies in venues where the consumer is market driven.
Glenda Lee (glenmar)
Charter Member
Username: glenmar
Post Number: 14913
Registered: 1-2004
I just measure 33 lbs of innova, cup by cup into my storage bin. Did the Dog Furniture and IF I feed 4 C per day to my 93 pound gsd (he gets 2 per day and homecooked) it would cost me 96 cents per day to feed him. Maybe that sounds high to you, but considering that mine don't need dentals, more than once a year vet visits for a well check, etc, well, guess I'll stick with my Indestructible Dog Toys.
Yes, Natura does send reps places, but so do ALL the super premium Pet Apparel
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 8:54 pm:
Here is an interesting article about advertising and Dog Apparel.
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 9:45 pm:
Authority
Product Claims:
- No by-products, no artificial colors, no artificial flavors, no artificial Cat Grooming Supplies .
Authority - Adult Formula With Real Dog Sweaters
Ingredients:
Chicken meal, brewers rice, ground corn, animal fat (preserved with vitamin E (mixed tocopherols)), chicken, dried beet pulp, corn gluten meal, brown rice, chicken liver digest, dried egg product, canola oil, dicalcium phosphate, corn oil, gourmet cat treats , ...
Product Claims:
- made with natural ingredients
Nutro Natural Choice Ultra - Adult
Ingredients:
Chicken meal, brown rice, ground rice, lamb meal, rice bran, Pet Toys oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, source of linoleic acid), poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, source of linoleic acid), salmon meal (natural source of dha), flaxseed (natural source of alpha-linolenic acid), natural flavors, oatmeal, alfalfa (natural source of chlorophyll), beet pulp, Cat Bowls pomace (natural source of lycopene), cranberry, fish oil (natural source of dha), dried egg product, l-lysine, kelp (natural source of iodine), taurine, bacillus lichenformis fermentation extract, bacillus subtilis fermentation extract, l-carnitine, glucosamine hydrochloride, chondroitin sulfate, garlic (natural source of selenium), marigold extract (natural source of Cat Toys), ...
Nutro Natural Choice - Chicken, Rice & Oatmeal
Ingredients:
Chicken meal, rice flour, ground rice, rice bran, poultry fat (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of natural vitamin E), oatmeal, sunflower oil (preserved with mixed tocopherols, a source of natural vitamin E), natural flavor, dried beet pulp, Dog Shirts, dried egg product, dried kelp (source of iodine), ...
Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 9:58 pm:
I rate the 3 foods above in the following order:
Nutro Natural Choice Ultra - Adult
Nutro Natural Choice - Chicken, Rice & Oatmeal
Authority - Adult Formula With Real Chicken (distant 3rd)
I don't like fractional food products like brewers rice and corn gluten meal. They are waste products from human food production and nutritionally deficient.
Animal fat is a deal breaker for me. I don't like mystery ingredients that can change from batch to batch. I don't like poultry fat either, but it is much better than animal fat.
Rice is a much better ingredient than corn since rice is much more Dog Shampoos. Corn is an inexpensive ingredient used to artifically raise the percentage of protein. Much of its protein is not bioavailable to a dog.
Janet Gimblet (janet_rose)
Charter Member
Username: janet_rose
Wild Dogs INSTINCTIVLY go for the animal "By Product" and "Digest".
"digest" - I seriously doubt that wild dogs ever find a mixture of beef, horse, pork, chicken, turkey, ... , plus misc. junk like styrofoam containers in nature. I would like to see that animal.
Animal digest does NOT mean the contents of the digestive tract. It is a cooked-down broth made from unspecified parts of unspecified animals. The animals used can be obtained from any source, so there is no control over quality or contamination.
Byproducts are not inherently bad. The problems are
. They are often considered trash in human Dog Tee Shirts and are treated as such with little or no effort to avoid contamination or decay.
. They are often used to give the appearance of adding meat to a product without really doing so.
. The contents can vary from just internal organs to just hide or Dog Dresses .
I don't like mystery ingredients.
Glenda Lee (glenmar)
Charter Member
Username: glenmar
Post Number: 14930
Registered: 1-2004
Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 7:09 am:
I guess I should have worded my statement differently.....ALL dog food Dog Toys send reps all over, not just the super premiums. I see Purina reps just as often as anything else.
Eric Vecchiola (eric_vecc)
Junior Member
Username: eric_vecc
Hello there, just wanted to let you know that I am working on the chart that I promised.
I wanted to find out what people think of Eagele Pack. Do you fee the Holistic Dog Sweaters or the Origonal? Is there much of a difference? How much do you pay (preferably for a 30 or 33# bag)?
SkyeHi (skyehi)
Member
Username: skyehi
Post Number: 171
Registered: 9-2004
Posted on Friday, July 22, 2005 - 8:29 pm:
I am also here is PA (Dog Bowls ) and I found a store that has the Dog Coats for $26.99 for the 33# bag. The origonal is only $14.00 for the 33# bag. Plus they recommended going onto the website and printing off a $2 coupon once a month (every month). PLUS the frequent-feeder program you mentioned. This equates to a 33# bag of Solid Gold Original formula for $10.80. Could this even be Dog Pillow Beds???
HK MP5 · AR15 · COLT 1911 · SCOPE MOUNTS · · · · · RECOIL PADS · · · · ·
Stay focused guys, this thread is ONLY about .22 rimfires and personal survival. Not another RIFLE SCOPE , not hunting.
I have hunted with 22's for almost 30 years and AR-15
handguns for over 20. My choice has always been the Ruger MKII Target. It is heavy and I am deadly with it. Hunting with it typically involves being patient and looking for one shot kills on animlas that never saw AR-15
coming.
Weight to power ratio, my Ruger weighs twice as much as many 9mm's. Other than hunting, why would you carry a 40oz plus gun that is not at least 10mm or 44 mag?
For those of you that think a .22 is an option as a first line 10/22
MAGAZINES. IMHO you are nuts. Forget using ruger on cranked up junkies, shoot them all you want, they will remove the gun from your hands and shove it up your ass so far it will take the coroner a week with a flashlight just to find it.
DOGS: If you don't get the above word picture, get off your ass and drive in to the largest city you can find. Do your
Natural Dog Treats first. Try to find economically depressed areas with water running through them. AKA a bad hood with a creek or river near it. Typically you will see dogs in these areas, packs of dogs. (We already know feral dog packs are in the rural mini 14 , but half of them are Beagles and coon dogs, not Pit Bulls.)
Many of us have said if we were downtown and the SHTF we would follow mini 14 MAGAZINES, rivers, railroads or walking paths home. Well shit, where do you think the dogs are now? In my area, I can drive you to specific points along my route of AIMPOINT and I can show you the dog packs, and tell you how they have grown in numbers.
These areas are also where much of the random dog fighting is held as well. Ask cops where the dog fights are being done in your area. Easy to find SCOPE
MOUNTS·. The dead dogs will confirm it for you. I found them on my own, walking my routes by day and night. In the cities many dogs are just being bred to fight. Young men do it as another form of gambling. These same "men" father and dump children all over town. Now do you realy think they give a shit about dogs when they don't care about other human RIFLE SCOPES? No. They are dumped all over the place.
I have talked with some of these human AIMPOINT
COMP to understand what is going on with this dog fighting culture. It is not pretty.
So now place on a table 3 sets of weapons:
A defensive handgun of say 9mm or shooting supplies.
A large canister of mace and a fixed blade knife of at least 3 inches or a colapsible baton.
Any 22 handgun.
Look hard at these groupings and think how you would use each one with 3 to 5 dogs coming at you.
If you really think a .22 is going to stop one motivated dog, you are wrong. I would rather have a ton of mace and a knife over a .22. To prove my point, I have decided my daughter can no longer walk our dog without carrying a canister of mace with her. I was a complete dumbass for not doing this sooner, but I want to thank the growling pit bull from earlier this evening for waking me up.
If you still don't get a PISTOL LANYARD, go into the hunting forum as deer season approaches and read how people will debate if the .223 in a rifle is even good enough for killing deer. These same guys will look at you like you are fucking nuts for using a .22 BY CHOICE for people and dogs. I happen to be one of them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There will still be people that you will not reach with this post.
Hell for me a 9mm scope rings is cutting it close for dogs. I would prefer some thing M16.
I put one down with a 45acp and it took 3 shots to kill it. 2 to stop, third to kill it. Hell it was still trying to drag it's self towards me when I walked up to it and put the third one in it's TRIJICON ACOG.
Good post by the way.
Zoub
Member
Joined :: June 2001
Post Number :: 3958
IN, USA
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Mr45auto
Team Member
M1911 .45acp lemming.
Joined :: January 2001
Post Number :: 3901
OR, USA
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I agree and I carry my MK II in my pack as well. All I need now is the can. Silent dog removal is a must do thing on my list.
A lot of people carry too much gear, gear they will never need and plan for the wrong SCOPE MOUNTS right from the start.
I agree and I carry my MK II in my glock pack as well. All I need now is the can. Silent dog removal is a must do thing on my list.
A lot of people carry too much gear, gear they will never need and plan for the wrong tactics right from the start.
Screw on muzzle cans are cheap, integrals are M14. I've seen the Gemtech outback for $199. I bought a locally produced muzzle can for $200 add the tax and you're in $400. Buy a good one, you've got the $200 tax to pay regardless of how cheap you go on the suppressor. Shop around and get some quotes, I sort of jumped on the first one that a local dealer stocked. Fortunately I got a decent product but I'm sure it's not the quietest.
Thanks for stating the obvious. Sometimes its a good remind ones self as well as red dot scopes .
Though the .22lr has prominent place in survival planning for self defense it definately only has the nitch its better than nothing only. You can talk shot placement till you blue in the face but when the addrenlines flowing its a lot harder than one would care to believe. Not a popular comment I'm sure but I'd put handgun calibers .32 caliber and Dog Grooming Supplies into the same A.R.M.S.
MOUNT.
Gun Accessories
protus
Team Member
senior director of tin foil hat AR-15
SCOPE MOUNTS
Joined :: February 2004
P
LOL
hell they do it now,, they swear that its the best thing ever since slicedbread to use a TRIJICON ACOG 223 round to drop a deer!
granted it can do it, but so can a sharp stick.
i agree with you for dogs a big can of the bear can size mace and a knife along with a 9mm or larger handgun would be best! jnow a 12g with the above would even be better special if the dogs are packin up on you, but thenagain i doubtthey all will charge at once but the noise, and the fact that 1-3 ofthem may get hit will better your chances of getting away...
but im sure some one will say the 22lr is better so they can carry more ammo,,put a can onit,, or some super ubertacticalsurvivaloperator will tlak about doppin to a knee and i nshort fashion send those mangy dogs from hell back to their maker
Zoub:
Good post. I will, however, respectfully disagree. A .22 (rifle or handgun) CAN fill in as a viable survival weapon in a very large number of projected likely survival scenarios.
Your point, regarding the 22 LR as too small, too inadequate, too damned little, for serious defensive work is 101% right on the money correct. It IS too damned small. I'm with you all teh way. Defensive work, be it stopping the big rottie-mixbreed mutt in the back yard or shutting down a meth RIFLE SLINGS requires something bigger.
However, I do need to point the following out: This is AR-15.com. We tend, by the nature of the crowd we attract here, to overemphasize the whole defensive thing.While defense may be a part of survival, survival tends to be far more encompassing and of much greater scope and breadth than simply repelling the meth freak hordes...
Survival can and often does mean staying alive in inclement weather until you are found. It means being able to keep the FLASHLIGHTS warm and the lights on, and the kids fed during the storm and the cleanup that ensues. It means not losing the house due to job loss. it may mean quietly poaching food - and getting away with it - during another 1930's type HARRIS BIPOD. It means planning for the future and ensuring you have the resources to stay warm, dry, fed, and watered.
For a great many of us, these items are far more realistic and far far more likely than RIFLE SCOPES hordes. I can easily envision a whole bunch of situations where putting meat on the table is a likely 'need'. For these situations a .22 LR handgun cannot be beat, primarily beacause it is light, small, handy, ammo weighs nothing, and works very well for collecting all sorts of protien.
To date I've never needed a defensive firearm. I'll count myself lucky. I live in an area where riots and hordes of hungry animals are not all that likely. I do not ignore these risks, and am prepared for them, but I do acknowledge that actually ever needing to use my AR-15
Sights or my SKS is, in all MINI 14 MAGAZINES
, a very very unlikely situation.
I regularly use a .22 handgun as my only SHTF weapon. In most cases, night vision is one of those RIFLE CASES were its a .22 in hand beats a .45 at home. Weight, portability are issues:
To date I've packed my favorite firearm, a little 4" S&W SCOPE RINGS 63 .22LR a LOT. And I am far more likely to actually need it than my ARs. I regularly hike in the Adirondacks. These hikes take me off the beaten path and 12 to 15 miles "in". My beautiful Kimber Gold Match .45 is a wonderful gun, but its too damned heavy to pack on a trip like this. Better the .22 than TACTICAL SLINGS.
I hunt these same woods, getting way off the PRI Mounts trails. I've been seriously lost a few times. The .22 is very useful in these situations. Its a small game collector (try eating what is left of a ruffed grouse after you've popped it with a .350 Rem Mag). I've used a small pistol to collect small game like this many many times. I also like the usefullness of a pistol that has 50 or 100 rounds of ammo, since it can serve as a signalling device. I can make the same pistol grips regarding snowmobiling, and canoeing, and a whole host of other activities.
I'd argue that others - bush pilots come to mind, as do timber cruisers - would be well served with a small, light small game 'getter'. I've spent some time hunting and canoeing northern ontario and quebec. Whitetails and moose are Ruger 10/22 Magazines and far between. However, there are days I used a .31 caliber cap n ball revolver to shoot a whole grill full of ruffed and spruce grouse. A .22 with 100 rounds of ammo is far far more useful than a 9mm/40/45 with a handful of ammo.
If your likely survival scenarios are heavily weighted towards 'defense', the .22LR is inadequate. In this I agree with you.
However, if your likely survival scenarios are more likely to include signalling, small game collection, poaching the occasional larger critter, and simply making the statement "I am armed", the lowly .22LR pistol can fulfill a first line role...
In my case I firmly believe in covering the bases: A decent SHTF outfit should include a centerfire rifle (large game getter/defensive weapon), shtogun (small game getter/defensive weapon) and .22 (small game getter supreme, with dirt cheap ammo that can be horded in obscene quantitites, and quite useful as a poaching tool).
I recognize that this whole topic is highly subjective. If you are an urban, big city dweller, and feel taht the vast majority of your survival situations require a large caliber handgun, go for it. If you are a rural resident, and have little risk of encoutnering the zombie meth hordes, a lowly .mini 14 MAGAZINES pistol may prove to be far more useful than 9mm/40/45 (particularly if its part of a kti that includes a rifle and /or shotgun).
I will never rely on ANY handgun as my 'first line' shtf weapon. The one coltweapon of choice will always be a centerfire rifle. However, with rifle in hand, I can picture a greate many situations were I would choose a lowly little .22LR over a larger GLOW STICKS.
No flames intended. Just food for thought.
die-tryin
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"MADCOW"
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Post Number :: 8672
FL, USA
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No different than someone being so hopped up on caffiene with a hipowered rifle taking questionable shots while shaking. Its about skills, accuracy and shot placement
as far as .22lr goes................
noone is saying its BETTER, its jus an option. You may wanna take the blinders off and look at all the options available. .223 and .22lr have their place. If you live in Urban terrain, you dont want to be making a whole lotta noise. .22 surpressed will do the trick, it is about shot placement, that is why practice is vital in anything you do. My .22lr w/ Can will be part of my LIne 3, AR-15 ACCESSORIES Line 1 but It is part of my gear.
IIRC, the Israelis were using supressed 10/22s during the AR-15 HANDGUARDS , and they originally categorized them as nonlethal weapons.
-green
I think we are in agreement.
I have a decent selection of SCOPE
LEVEL , but 99% of the time, when I'm CCW, it's a .pistol sights .
And I'm a 9mm supporter too...
(Maybe I just want to have a bigger stick than everyone else??? )
Posted :: 7/15/2005 9:45:32 AM EDT
berdan
Team Member
Joined :: September 2003
Post Number :: 307
My original feelings go back to the sniper who was killing hunters and joggers IN THE WOODS years ago here in the midwest. He was using a rifle. There is a nice documentary out there about the guy. Most of us started carrying a sidearm while small game hunting or at least slugs for the shotgun.
I have had more close range encounters with criminals, Feds and everything in between in the country then I have in the city. Stress close range here. At times I felt safer in Watts than I have in the woods, and I am White.
I just think there is NO situation, location or environment that warrants letting your guard down. We have plenty of kids in here shooting big bore guns. No need for any adult to carry a .22 as first line gear.
FYI I love my AR for deer. But I am playing sniper and taking ethical shots. Why do I love it? Poachers and tresspassers. When, not if I cross paths with these criminals, I won't be holding a bolt gun, and I am talking a very rural area. I find rural criminals to be very bold and territorial. Remember that Vietnamese guy last fall in Wisconsin with an SKS.
Thanks for stating the obvious. Sometimes its a good remind ones self as well as AR15
MAGAZINES.
Though the .22lr has prominent place in survival planning for self defense it definately only has the nitch
No different than someone being so hopped up on caffiene with a hipowered rifle taking questionable shots while shaking. Its about skills, accuracy and shot placement
as far as .22lr goes................
noone is saying its BETTER, its jus an option. You may wanna take the blinders off and look at all the options available. .223 and .22lr have their place. If you live in Urban terrain, you dont want to be making a whole lotta noise. .22 surpressed will do the trick, it is about shot placement, that is why practice is vital in anything you do. My .22lr w/ Can will be part of my LIne 3, never Line 1 but It is part of my gear.
blinders where
multiple targets, in a pack,,, moving, maybe at dark or dim lit areas(creek beds) as you said
options,, against dogs thats what i would want,, NOT a 22LR.
Zoob I agree.
My reasons that a 22lr can be the best in SHTF.
The 22 is all there is right here right now
Some 22s don't weigh 40oz and can be there when SHTF where the long slide Glock has to stay stored.
In preps we should have the best equipment before beretta, but in reality SHTF is a run what you Precision Reflex br
Another upside, is you can carry much more ammo, weight wise, for the .22lr than you can a 9mm, .40, or .45.
I'll answer this post though I know you won't take any heed. Training and practice improves your ·FLIP UP SIGHT· dramatically but nothing prepares you for the actual event. You simply don't know the elephant until you've see him.
You might want to explain just exactly how you train for being shot at, watching people you know getting blown away, your target moving while shooting, and your technique for keeping your red dot sights . You simply can't train for it nor know how you will react until the red dot scopes.
In my experience and not theory (I've seen the elephant more than once), anyone who claims they have no addrenline during combat/life threatening crisis is either liar or mental.
Now consider that hunting is not the scenario Zoub put out but self defense. Stopping a SCOPE MOUNTS attacker with a .22lr is pretty much limited to a head shot or heart shot. Armies have been training their soldiers to aim low in combat since the concept of the gun due to a natural tendency for humans to aim high under stress. Which would you prefer to aim at? A center Dog Frisbee or Flashlight Mount?
Its all an odds game with dire consquences. Just as training and practive improves your FIBER OPTIC sights so does having a larger caliber and high rate of fire. Years back a police officer buddy of mine confronting an illegal Mexican took three rounds of .25 in the chest and still subdued the attacker until help arrived.
No when it comes to stopping a badguy, its a shame they don't make a pocket size semiautomatic howitzer.
Another issue I won't touch on in detail is the willingness to kill in the first place.
Sorry for my annual speach but I give it sometimes when I get training overcomes weapon selection and experience comments.
All that being said, I have many .22s and probably the most common caliber I own for the .22 has many advantages just self defense is not one of them.
Tj
Well, I can see the light! I have a 22lr in the KHTF kit merely & solely for shooting small game for the skillet, thats it. For rabide dogs and bad boy SMITH & WESSON , I now carry a 44 mag hand cannon. HOWEVER, feral dogs & wolves, especially in "PACKS", is somthing I've overlooked.
After reading your intial post, I closed my eyes and imagined an colt revolver of five K-9's. MAN! once they hit you and your ass is on the ground a pistol would be worthless and really it could become a liabilty. I agree, a knife would do a hell of a lot of damge in the situation. Yet, mace, to me would not be as benficial. I may getting a little to technical on this issue, but ya got the gears crankin! There are some what if's that seem to dwindle the need of using mace. 1) wind condtions., 2) once you nail them with the spray and they don't stop, you now have to worry about the mace coming back to you in the form of a bite or merely having it rubbed in your face. 3) the intial use of the canister, it is the same as pointing a gun, which means you either have to "wide arch spray" the dogs, depending on angles of attcak, or pick your shots for full effect. 4) at close quarters, they are chewing on you, it may work, but as previously mentioned, the dogs may kick into "overdrive".
Now, baton and knife would be a better combo. The baton would and should be the tree they clamp their jaws on, while the knife is used to target "muscle" groups. Try to target throat or tendon areas and finish them off with a cracked skull.
I have a suggestion, how about a stun gun or baton? I would think that this type of weapon could be extremly useful in a situation like this. Jab the SOB in the eye, EOTECH or ball sack and bet he will run for the dog house. What do you think?
Here's a crazy idea, carry a flash bang! it will make you and the dogs think twice!
Now, when I think of my 10 year old, I was thinking mace due to fact kids can not over power animals. But my experience with mace is limited.
However, the collapsible baton suddenly seems like a good idea for a kid too. She knows how to use her Revolver Grips stick.
.22's are for hunting small game such as squirrels, birds, rabbits, etc. or for a can on so you can shoot something silently. As a defensive weapon, I'd be more likely to pull a knife than Luxury Pet Supplies
